This is a Bad Idea(tm) if not done correctly. Had a customer with an epson printer decide to revert back to 10.3 until epson gets some drivers that work. Unfortunately, A&I fails to replace apps like Safari and Mail with versions that are compatible with 10.3, so you end up with a working OS and very few working (bundled) apps.

Apparently you have to delete all the bundled apps out of /Applications if you are needing to revert from 10.4 back to 10.3, so that the A&I will install new copies of the old versions of the apps.

ALSO, attempting a password reset on a machine that has had tiger installed on it results in about 15 "users" listed, most of which are users Tiger added for internal use only. We also had problems with accounts that had been deleted growing their home folders back after panther was reinstalled. (they came back on their own without the user logging in, and without the user showing up in the login list... very strange indeed!)

Apparently once you go with Tiger, going back to Panther is a bit rocky. Maybe this was a known or expected issue for some of you, but it came as a bit of a surprise to me.

Thanks for the warning V1; good advice. I'm going to move this over to the Tips & Hints forum in a bit where it wont get lost.

Your experience reinforces the necessity of having a Panther backup. Then, you can erase the Tiger drive and clone from the backup to return to the previous system.

Excellent info and points all around. Thanks. Let's hear it for clones on externals always. I have a pristine clone of my Tiger internal, a 10.3.9 clone, and another clone of my Tiger internal for experimentation with point updates.

can somebody send me a link or give me a walkthrough on how to clone panther to my external HD?

Probably best to download Carbon Copy Cloner first; it's operation is pretty straightforward - duplicate start up volume to selected disk. Prior to performing a clone, ensure your permissions have been repaired, hard drive is in good shape and directories are OK.

Disk Utility - Repair Permissions on start up volume
Start up from OS Panther CD and open Disk Utility - run Repair Disk
Directory repairs can be made with a program such as DiskWarrior

I'll add my two cents to Mississauga's advice. I have used Carbon Copy Cloner many times, always successfully by doing the following:

1. Run Disk Warrior and repair permissions on the source (original).
2. Clone with CCC.
3. Repeat step 1, but on the clone. Permissions can and do get mangled in the cloning process and sometimes there are some minor issues that DW fixes.

Would someone knowledgeable about cloning add explanations of:
-- when to check the "ignore permissions" box (GetInfo on an external drive while booted from the internal drive, or vice versa) and when NOT to check that box?
-- when to Repair Permissions on the boot drive working from the boot drive, vs
Repair Permissions on the internal/external while booted from the other, or from a CD?

This is one of those set theory problems with a LOT of combinations possible -- some recommended.

when to Repair Permissions on the boot drive working from the boot drive, vs
Repair Permissions on the internal/external while booted from the other, or from a CD?

When in doubt, repair permissions on the boot drive while working from the boot drive. Actually, it's fine if you do it from another volume as well. The only caveat, as of now, is to use the 10.3.9 version of Disk Utility to repair permissions on Tiger, not a previous version.

I can't answer the question about "ignore permissions" but I'm very interested in an expert opinion.

Selecting "ignore permissions" in a volume's Get Info window causes the system to treat every file and folder on that volume as owned by you. This is true for read AND write.

The write part might elicite a "well, DUH..." but this becomes important when using ditto (with root permission) to copy directories. If you attempt to clone a bootable OS X volume to another volume, and you accidentally have the ignore box checked on EITHER volume, the copy will result in every file on the desitination owned by your user id, which will render it unbootable. Basically, if ignore is checked on the destination, and you "sudo ditto" something to that volume, the files that are created will be set to be owned by you, not merely masquerading as yours while the box is checked. (I'd consider this a bug, but I think someone at Apple considers this "functioning normally")

I'd need several hands to count the number of times one of those checkboxes has torpedoed a volume duplication for me... They tend to (re)check themselves automagically after you format a drive, or when mounting a drive as a firewire volume. The scenario usually goes something like "ok, ready to copy, ignore is unchecked... oh, I need to wipe that first... (erase..) ok ditto away... (an hour later) oh, that sucks, it rechecked itself when I formatted... I get to do that all over again." So far I've only once done it back to back once. THAT had me upset. ("oh drat, I forgot to re-uncheck it... (uncheck) Oh ya, I need to reformat before I can reditto... (reformat) (dittto)... "ARRG!")

You can run a repair permissions on any volume containing mac os 10.1 or later. Being booted up on the drive at the time is OK. If you're booted into 10.1 you will need a stand-alone proggy downloaded from Apple, but for 10.2 and up you use Disk Utility. Don't run a version of Disk Utility that is an entire major version earlier than the volume you're going to be repairing. (example: don't boot up off a 10.3 CD to repair perms on a drive with 10.4 installed on it)

Oh, and mixing the two topics... if you have "ignore permissions" checked on the drive when you try to repair permissions on it, Disk Utility will go APE and try (in vain) to fix everything because the ownership of most of the files on the volume looks wrong. This is usually punctuated by seeing an instant and continuous flood of "fixed" messages scrolling rapidly through Disk Utility's progress window. Just cancel the check, get info, uncheck the ignore box, and go back into DU and re-run the repair. I don't know if this "bug" has been fixed for 10.4. (it really shouldn't allow you to run a repair whilst that box is checked)

My best information is that CarbonCopyCloner is not yet ready for Tiger, so if you use it, be on the Panther Start-up Drive OR use SuperDuper! if you're running on Tiger. The User Manual for CarbonCopyCloner is important to read. It's clear.

I could get NO BOOTABLE CLONES until I learned the trick with the 'IGNORE PERMISSIONS...' checkbox. Having it checked causes certain files to be omitted - the 'boot' files included.

It sounds like the "Ignore" check box has caused me some trouble in the past I didn't know it. I was trying to copy media from existing Fibre Drives to an Xsan Managed volume, and the permissions would change, they would end up being linked to the user that performed the copy. Which caused the migration to Xsan to come to a screeching halt. I wasn't about to go in manually and change the permissions back to the way they were suppose to be, for all of the 5TB's of files that needed to be copied. I tried the "apply to enclosed Items" but that didn't work all of the time.

Again
Thanks, for the great suggestions.
Kalagan

Whenever you do a drag and drop in Finder, the copies are always owned by the person doing the copy. To maintain ownership requires a program like CCC or to use the "ditto" command from terminal. If Ignore Permissions on This Volume is checked on either the source or the destination drive, all copies will be owned by the person doing the copy, even if CCC or ditto is used. You also cannot use Disk Utility to repair permissions on a drive that's set to ignore. (and thre's no warning, it just fills your screen with problems, supposedly "fixed", which I'd classify as a bug)

"Apply to enclosed items" in the sharing panel of Server Admin app seems to work, but I have never seen Apply to Enclosed Items in the Finder's Get Info window work. You'd think they'd have gotten that fixed by now? You can recursively set ownership or permissions for a system of folders in Terminal using the chown and chmod commands with the -R flag. If all the files you were copying needed to end up being owned by a specific user/group or needed to have the same privledges (rw/rw/r) these commands would have worked very well to fix your xsan problem.

Thanks for the insights. I double checked the two drives I was trying to copy from and to, and the drive I was tyring to copy from had the Ignore checked. I will try it again, thanks!

I do have two related questions. 1) I was told to use the copy command or the Xsan specific copy command cvcp. Is ditto any different from either of those? 2) I have used CCC to image an entire disk, but can it be used to copy just a bunch of folders to another drive?

Thanks
Kalagan

I have used CCC to image an entire disk, but can it be used to copy just a bunch of folders to another drive?

If you created these folders and the documents in them, you can copy them by drag-and-drop.

Unfortunately, most of these files reside on a set of Share Fibre Drives, and many of the files were created by a number of different users. So, the Drag & Drop Method didn't work in this case.

Thanks
Kalagan

I'm not familiar with cvcp. Ditto is actually what CCC uses internally to copy the data from place to place. (CCC is a user-friendly front-end for the ditto and the bless commands in terminal, basically) I don't see any reason why ccc or ditto would have any problem with a san drive. That cvcp command might be a variation on ditto that somehow optimizes its performance for the san?

OK, if someone didn't read this forum first and did this, is it possible to get Safari and Mail working properly again? Everything else seems to be working fine.

What you needed to to was to delete those apps before restoring. Really, you need to delete ALL titles bundled with 10.3 before reinstalling 10.3. If you leave them there, the 10.3 installer sees a newer version of the app and will skip the installation, leaving you with an app that requires a later version of OS than you currently have installed.

You might try Pacifist to extract the apps you need from the installer packages on the CD.

Or you might go ahead and delete all the apps that don't work, and run an Archive and Install to get the installer to put them back.

Well that Pacifist program looks pretty good, I will clone my system first though. I will probably need to delete the apps first, correct? Any other helpfull hints?

No need to clone reallly, you are just installing apps. Extract them with Pacifist to another folder and test them out. If you like them, kill the bad onees in /Applications/ and move the new ones in. All done. Zero risk really.

Yup .. it is happening here. I found out that Tiger was not ... and never going to be .. compatable with my Protools software and hardware. So I picked up a G5 for me .. and reinstalled Panther to the studio G4.

None of the installed bundles worked .. including quicktime.
After installing a couple times .. I finally tried deleting the installed bundle. OK .. it worked fine on the install to 10.3.? The Disk copy. But ... when I downloaded the combo upgrades ... a lot of them to OS 10.3.9 .. the bundle stopped working again !

I haven't had time to check it out. HAS ANYONE GOTTEN THIS FAR IN THIS BACKWARD INSTALL ???

Thanks for anything

Jon2

This idea work, you just need to make sure that "others" have read & write access.

Thank you!

True... I easily forget that - my computer, a powerbook, is definitely a one-user mac. So if it works for me, all is well.

And now we discover we can't Archive and Install 10.4 over 10.4.2:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=302350

I think it would be good general advice to move the entire applications folder somewhere else before doing an A&I, to force it to reinstall the base applications. You will run into a similar problem trying t A&I back to 10.3 from 10.4, because the installer sees newer versions of things like Safari, and decides not to replace them. This is unfortunate, because the 10.4 version of Safari (1.3?) will not run under 10.3. Some other apps are also affected.

V1, I have a question I need some help with please. I recently replaced my HD with a new WD 160Gb. I installed a clean OS 10.4 and have updated it to 10.4.3 that is running great. I also have a good deal of older MAC software that need to run in classic. I have purchased a copy of OS 9.2 full install/bootable from ebay and now I am not quite sure how to go about installing it in my OS 10.4.3. Do you have some advise on doing this kind of install? Thanks, Jmelton
P.S.-system is G4 PowerMac 400 sawtooth, 512 mb RAM

There may be an easy way to install that via some special software like Pacifist, but you cannot run the installer as it sits on the CD. It will see OS X as a "newer version of OS 9", and will refuse to install without erasing. Ideally, you should use a burned CD or large flash drive to copy the "System Folder" and "Applications (Mac OS 9)" folders from another computer that has classic installed onto it. These two folders alone will make up the classic environment on your tiger installation, and can be "installed" by simply dragging and dropping them onto your OS X hard drive.

Actually, I have a plan you can try. I have not tested this, it's something I just came up with, but in theory it should work. Boot your mac off the OS 9 CD. When it boots up, you will have access to the desktop. Create a folder on your hard drive, call it "TIGER". Move -everything- that's at the root folder of the hard drive into that folder. I hope this will make OS 9 not recognize tiger as an installed OS anymore. Then you should be able to install OS 9. (do an "install" and do not select to erase the destination) After it reboots, it will boot up in OS 9. Then you can drag the contents of TIGER back to the base hard drive. You may need to rename the "Applications" folder that OS 9 installed first - rename it to "Applications (Mac OS 9)" (if it's not already named that way) before dragging everything out of TIGER. Then run Startup Disk and select OS X as your startup system and restart. That should take you back to OS X, with classic installed. If that works, get back to us and let us know we've got a good method for classifying a tiger drive.

The only snag I see is that I'm not completely sure that simply moving the system folders into a subfolder will make the OS 9 installer lose scent of the OS X installation. (for OS 9 anyway, the presense of "System" and "Finder" in the same folder is all that is required to be identified as a system folder, and can occur in any folder on the hard drive) If it still complains that there's a newer version of Mac OS on the hard drive, owell... move the files back out of TIGER and look for a plan B. (like copying the two key folders listed above from another computer)

Thanks for your expert help. Another option I think might work as well would be to backup all items I want to keep and do a erase/install of OS9 and then reinstall OS10. I know that would take longer, but would get me to the setup I'm looking for. Downside is it would take up more HD than your approach. But with the 128 Gb of new HD I don't think it is a problem at this time. I'll give it some consideration before I act. Thanks again for your much appreciated help. Jmelton

This is indeed a very useful post. It's also an example why drivers, new versions of apps, etc. are available and is easily achieved by setting up a small boot partition on an external FW drive for the current and well as previous major OS revision. In many cases it is important to update the former OS regularly too.

Following the lead of a vendor which claims compatibility with "10.2 and higher" tends to be be meaningless with not only 10.3 or 10.4 but also even later versions of 10.2 in some instances. Believing vendors of third party software is often an exercise in futility in the first place unless reviewed by an independent source of members of some site like MacFixIt.

Too late! I screwed up by doing this.
I have a exact copy of 10.3.9 saved on an external drive using retrospect express and need to understand how to restore it to my start up disk.
I think I should do a clean re-install 10.3.9 using the reformat option. Afterwards, can I drag and drop the saved copy to restore my HD to the original state before installing Tiger. I am concerned about the permissions isssues with drag and dropping the backup copy. I'm so confused....!? Help, please.

The way I would fix this if I were you is to insert the 10.3.5 CD, set it as the startup disk, move all the items in Applications into a new folder ("Applications 10.4") then restart, which should boot to the 10.3.5 CD, and do another archive and install of 10.3.5.

This will fix your application problems, but will not fix your netinfo database. I don't know how safe it will be to go in and delete the "clamav" and other dozen or so new tiger system accounts, particularly if you intend to upgrade to 10.4 later. (could create unusable system accounts and break stuff) Best to leave those alone I think.

You could also use Pacifist to extract and install the correct applications off the 10.3.5 CD but I don't know how well that will work.

Good post.
Never went to Tiger. Too many glitches. Waiting for 3rd or 4th generation of the next OS. Still content with OS X3.8.
X39 sucked(s).
Can't go back, like you say, without losing stuff. Important stuff.

Nuff said.

Waiting on the next OS and it's improvements. Without Intel and any Microsoft stuff.
Ipods with viruses now?
eMacs 1 G and 700 M both on OS X 3.8 and happy.
Read the hacker and security reports people. Please.

Dan O.

In reply to:

---

Good post.
Never went to Tiger. Too many glitches. Waiting for 3rd or 4th generation of the next OS. Still content with OS X3.8.
X39 sucked(s).
Can't go back, like you say, without losing stuff. Important stuff.

Nuff said.

Waiting on the next OS and it's improvements. Without Intel and any Microsoft stuff.
Ipods with viruses now?
eMacs 1 G and 700 M both on OS X 3.8 and happy.
Read the hacker and security reports people. Please.

Dan O.

---

uh, sure.

Thanks, Roger, for the thoughtful and thought provoking reply.
I hope this is not indicative of most replies on this site.

Dan

Well... At least it was was coherent and explicit.

Hmm. Really.
Thanks Artie, for your 2 cents.

Maybe these will help with the explanation you gave of your and Roger's replies.

Coherent:

adj 1: marked by an orderly, logical, and aesthetically consistent relation of parts; "a coherent argument" [ant: incoherent] 2: capable of thinking and expressing yourself in a clear and consistent manner; "a lucid thinker"; "she was more coherent than she had been just after the accident" [syn: logical, lucid] 3: sticking together; "two coherent sheets"; "tenacious burrs" [syn: tenacious]

WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


Explicit:

adj 1: precisely and clearly expressed or readily observable; leaving nothing to implication; "explicit instructions"; "she made her wishes explicit"; "explicit sexual scenes" [syn: expressed] [ant: implicit] 2: in accordance with fact or the primary meaning of a term [syn: denotative]

WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

On-line Medical Dictionary, © 1997-98 Academic Medical Publishing & CancerWEB

If Roger (or you) could have asked questions about my reply to the first poster, that would seem intelligent. Nobody else had anything to say about my post. Maybe they go by the 'rule' of not saying anything if you have nothing nice to say. Albeit my comment about Tiger.

My apologies for not being as technically adept with computers as you all. I entered this site a couple years ago for help. That doesn't seem to be the case for this site as far as people that have no Mac friends near them and learn on their own.

Off to friendlier help sites. Fortunately they are aplenty.
Best wishes,
Dan

sorry, Dan, I jumped in here late, and just saw your post deriding Tiger. I have experienced none of the problems you mention, and I'm guessing that many (most) don't either. your post appeared to be a rant about 10.4, and I sarcastically disagreed. you offered no explanation of the terribleness of Tiger, just how bad it was. frankly, I wouldn't go back to anything previous. well, maybe if you paid me large sums of money, or bought me presents...

this is a friendly place, full of experienced and willing people.

punch, poke, buy you a Coke.®

Good post.

more than a year old.

Never went to Tiger. Too many glitches. Waiting for 3rd or 4th generation of the next OS. Still content with OS X3.8.

glitches? such as?

X39 sucked(s).

not in my experience. much faster, and more stable than 10.3.8

Can't go back, like you say, without losing stuff. Important stuff.

true, but, isn't that always the case?

Nuff said.

apparently not.

Waiting on the next OS and it's improvements. Without Intel and any Microsoft stuff.

going to be waiting a looong time.

Ipods with viruses now?

probably. there are millions of them out there.

eMacs 1 G and 700 M both on OS X 3.8 and happy.

great!

Read the hacker and security reports people. Please.

better stay away from computers, then. build it and they will come.


yeah, I'm having a lousy day, too....

> Coherent:

adj 1: marked by an orderly, logical, and aesthetically consistent relation of parts; "a coherent argument" [ant: incoherent] 2: capable of thinking and expressing yourself in a clear and consistent manner; "a lucid thinker"; "she was more coherent than she had been just after the accident" [syn: logical, lucid] 3: sticking together; "two coherent sheets"; "tenacious burrs" [syn: tenacious]

WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Explicit:

adj 1: precisely and clearly expressed or readily observable; leaving nothing to implication; "explicit instructions"; "she made her wishes explicit"; "explicit sexual scenes" [syn: expressed] [ant: implicit] 2: in accordance with fact or the primary meaning of a term [syn: denotative]

WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Had you considered all that while you were writing your initial post...and, by the way, the thrust of V1's post, the one that inspired yours, is that you CAN go back, losing absolutely NOTHING in the process, as long as you know the correct procedure.

In closing... Perhaps you ought to reread that post of yours; it reads as if it was written by a completely different individual than the one who wrote your last coupla posts.

Thanks for your definitions Artie.
Had I known that I must use my utmost grammar to give a bit of rant on Tiger, and agree with V1's initial post, I would have been more careful.
I am sometimes loose with my dialect in postings. Most sites have no problem with that. Apparently some of you on this site do.
I got a nice reply from Roger, aka rajah, after mine to yours.
Like I said, I'm not nearly as adept with Mac tech as most of you. But I do pride myself on grammar and friendliness.
Thanks for your admonitions,
Dan

> Thanks for your admonitions,

Feel free to incite them any time.

And any time you've got an issue that needs to be dealt with I'll be happy to help if and as best I'm able.

I'm having the same problem with my DA. Like a fool I downloaded an upgrade for 10.4.
The unit went dead in the water. Writing this on my Quicksilver.

Think I will boot it up with my "OS9.2.1 Boot up.img" disk and throw away the OSX system file. Then I can reinstall OS 10.3.9 and drive a stake in the ground until OS10.4 is more stable.

I don't see why this wouldn't work.

RHB
Happiness is owning a Triumph motorcycle and a Macintosh.

I'm sorry that you had these problems. For me and (from what I can tell) the majority of users, 10.4 is very stable. Perhaps you didn't upgrade by the recommended methods or you installed third-party haxies that did damage? In any event, read Upgrading and Updating Safely and Maintaining Your Mac for ideas.